[Clayart] Clayart Digest, Vol 11, Issue 77

Abigail Faust abbyfaust at att.net
Fri Oct 28 10:52:49 EDT 2016


Robert, please send me a picture of some of your bowls. Thank you.

abbyfaust at att.net

Sent from my iPhone Abby Faust

> On Oct 27, 2016, at 8:57 PM, clayart-request at lists.clayartworld.com wrote:
> 
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Bad pots (Vince Pitelka)
>   2. teaching throwing/story (mel jacobson)
>   3. Re: Throughing thinner? (Ken Chase)
>   4. Re: Throughing thinner? (ran mcc)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 17:28:03 -0500
> From: "Vince Pitelka" <vpitelka at dtccom.net>
> To: "'Clayart international pottery discussion forum'"
>    <clayart at lists.clayartworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [Clayart] Bad pots
> Message-ID: <002a01d230a1$62319450$2694bcf0$@dtccom.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="utf-8"
> 
> Kathi Lesueur wrote:
> But, they (universities) do take ownership of student work all of the time. 
> 
> Hi Kathi - 
> My university has never done that in the 22 years I have taught here.  I know it is done, but it is wrong.  It sets a bad example.  
> - Vince
> 
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka at dtccom.net  
> https://sites.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:clayart-bounces at lists.clayartworld.com] On Behalf Of KATHI LESUEUR
> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 8:25 PM
> To: Clayart international pottery discussion forum <clayart at lists.clayartworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [Clayart] Bad pots
> 
>> On Oct 26, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Randall - 
>> Colleges and universities cannot and do not assert ownership over faculty artwork, just like they cannot and do not assert ownership over original musical compositions or scholarly books.  They get nothing out of it but the prestige for the institution and the department, and that is as all the payment they need.  I know it is very different in the sciences or engineering, where patents are involved.  You shouldn't confuse that with creative works in the arts and scholarship.  
>> - Vince 
>> 
> 
> But, they do take ownership of student work all of the time. 
> 
> KATHI LESUEUR
> http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 17:32:19 -0500
> From: mel jacobson <melpots2 at visi.com>
> To: clay <" clayart"@lists.clayartworld.com.>
> Subject: [Clayart] teaching throwing/story
> Message-ID: <58128073.7050805 at visi.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
>  and, how you throw and what direction.
> 
> one thing i learned years ago...have all the wheels facing a 
> wall of some kind.
> i know many will think that is strange...but, being private 
> in art and craft is critical.  wheels facing one another 
> just invites trouble.  throwing clay wads at each other, 
> down the blouse etc.  i was very strict about low cut 
> outfits.  they understood and went along with it. showing 
> body parts was not accepted.
> 
> i would always demo the body parts parade made on the wheel.
> `breast and nipple, tall penis, etc.`  then would explain to 
> the new kids that to demean, or make fun of anything in the 
> studio was to make fun of yourself. we honored clay, we did 
> not make fun of it. clay is golden. it is not poop.  no 
> toilet paper on the pug mill.  once told, it never 
> happened...ever.  same with drug pipes, etc. the older kids 
> would slam that door shut fast.  all we needed was one dorko 
> principal to see one made in the clay room. it never 
> happened.  period. i could spot a bong from a mile away.
> 
> people learning want to hide.
> they are not very good at it, so give them some private space.
> 
> i built a four foot wall in the center of my classroom.  six 
> wheels on a side.  then put the rest of the 25 wheels facing 
> walls in the room.  only my wheel was public.  we ran  2/20 
> amp circuits down the center of the center wall.
> i also had drop cords from the ceiling.  no wheel cords showing.
> 
> as i have said, we had very high standards, but we did that 
> with fun too.  seniors would do demo days...and each senior 
> had an underclass person to mentor. a couple of them 
> actually married.  (3 i think, became couples.)
> 
> we had a very strict protocol for learning.  elbow braced on 
> the knee and inside left leg.  the leg was the pivot...all 
> centering was done with the left leg. most kids got it the 
> first day when demo'd by a senior mentor. i would do a 
> physics problem lecture about moving a two pound ball a 
> quarter of an inch with the left leg as the power source.
> visual kids caught on very fast.  left handed kids were 
> always the fastest to learn.  they are always quick problem 
> solvers. (i am 100 percent left handed.)
> 
> if you had any time working with kids in art, it becomes 
> aware that the arm that is free often covers their paper. 
> both phy ed and art are exposure activities.  if you are 
> over weight, have to run the mile with all the other 
> kids...it is devastating. same in art..you have to compete 
> with a visual activity showing your work.
> math papers get turned in.  no one knows you are a total 
> dork.  so.
> empathy is important with art students.  let them hide out 
> until they get confident.
> 
> we had one other really fun activity...when that bucket of 
> slop clay got knocked to the floor, or all over some kid/ we 
> all yelled...`OIL SPILL`.  all the kids near the spill 
> snapped into action and started the clean up.  mops and 
> pails to the rescue.  i would start the clean up on the kid 
> with help of a few kids.  it would usually be a semi riot, 
> with mops and fresh water.  we always had a few old sweat 
> suits around for the kid to change into. used my closet. 
> the home ec room was in our wing so a kid would run over and 
> throw the dirty stuff in their clothes washer. (we had a 
> super relationship with home ec.) the kids actually loved 
> spills.
> it was fun, and never hard on the kid that spilled...it was 
> always OK`...IT HAPPENS TO ALL OF US.` NO BIG DEAL.
> 
> i actually taught mopping technique...the back and forth, 
> the military figure 8...the push pull, the fresh water 
> rinse.  we did a lesson on using sponges on dirty areas.
> water and squeeze,
> 
> each kid had a one square yard of the room to clean.  they 
> only took care of their space. so, clean up went fast.
> rock and roll loud, clean your space. i had over 180 
> students, six classes.  so on friday at 3...the room was 
> totally clean like the first day of class. we never cleaned 
> wheels are anything during the work week.  you set up the 
> wheel to fit your style. when done, stand up and leave 
> class.  and of course groups of kids would always use the 
> same wheel.  bob stands up and has the wheel ready for 
> karen, she gives it over to kim..  and so on.
> they always used the same space, every day.  many students 
> of mine had clay for three years.  they became very 
> proficient.  in the school schedule, my class was called 
> `clay`.  no 1,2, 3 etc.  just clay. we mixed all the kids 
> together.  the new ones learned much faster.
> and, if you screw around, a senior boy will have you by the 
> neck..`listen dork, this is an important class, we don't 
> screw around, got it???` they got it. fast.
> so. peer pressure was fair and awesome.  a standard line:
> `we don't save donuts and heavy pots, you will be making 
> really good stuff in a couple of weeks...stuff you will be 
> proud of. throw that in the pug mill, save the clay.`
> 
> and, the best of all.  seniors controlled all the clay in 
> boxes. they hid it all over the school. when the delivery 
> truck appeared, the word went out. clay kids showed up and 
> unloaded the truck. it never failed.  no janitor need help.
> it went in trunks of cars, behind the bleachers, in old 
> lockers...i did not care..i did not have to deal with it.
> it just showed up all the time.  they are devils you know.
> mel
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 16:46:53 -0700
> From: Ken Chase <kchase235 at gmail.com>
> To: Clayart international pottery discussion forum
>    <clayart at lists.clayartworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [Clayart] Throughing thinner?
> Message-ID: <31BC3CDE-2E68-4F3D-AA85-A15FF23961B0 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Robert:
> I would love to see photos. And a photo of
> The chuck you referenced. I haven't made a large bowl yet but will eventually. My bottle
> Forms are nearly 12" and climbing.
> Off line is fine.
> Thanks much
> Ken
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Oct 27, 2016, at 9:36 AM, Robert Harris <robertgharris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I throw thin and occasionally I get warping especially on bowls the size of
>> the ones Randy is talking about.
>> 
>> If you're having problems with deformation while the pot is plastic I would
>> suggest a) throwing with less water (easier said than done!) and 2) zapping
>> it with a blow torch/heatgun before you take it off the wheel.
>> 3) Don't trim the base by resting such a large bowl on its rim. I throw a
>> large chuck which the centre and strongest part of the bowl rests on.
>> It is also important to dry these things as evenly as possible. (Slow is
>> not necessarily better, just evenly). The easiest way to do this is put it
>> in some sort of box with holes in it.
>> 
>> None of this really helps with true warpage (as opposed to plastic
>> deformation) in the glaze kiln. For that there is really only one
>> suggestion and one "real" solution. The first suggestion is to make sure
>> your kiln shelves are dead flat - and if possible as even as possible. For
>> a large bowl I put it on an extra kiln shelf that I know is flat, and level
>> it with fibre or wadding (I don't go overboard on getting it level but I do
>> spend a couple of extra minutes).
>> 
>> But the real solution is ENGINEERING! Design a bowl that can be large and
>> thin and won't warp.
>> 
>> Everyone has a different "look" to their bowl so it's a bit difficult for
>> me to advise what to do, but the most obvious thing to do is to thicken up
>> your rim. Just like Susie's newspaper trick, a thicker rim will go a fair
>> way to preventing warpage. You can then run into the problem that Vince
>> mentioned where the pot looks lighter than it "should", however. Personally
>> I throw a large flange type lip on my large bowls that is about 25 degrees
>> above the horizontal. It actually has a slight curve in it that strengthens
>> it, and this flange has a very thick rim on it, which is less noticeable as
>> it's edge on to the viewer (the flange itself can be reasonable thin).
>> 
>> Also consider increasing the diameter of your foot a little. Finally make
>> sure the wall of the bowl has a true taper. With the exception of the rim
>> (which we've discussed and which should be well compressed!), the walls
>> must be as evenly tapered to the top as possible (including the flange, if
>> you have one). I once threw a bowl (about 20", wet) where the bottom 1/3
>> was either the same thickness or marginally thinner than the top 1/3 and
>> the whole thing just sat down around the foot! Basically if you get
>> everything as even as possible (and of course this includes as little
>> wobble as possible in the thrown form!) then you'll minimize the chance of
>> warpage.
>> 
>> Finally ... try to embrace a little bit of warpage! It's a handmade pot
>> after all! I have recently mentioned the diamond lap disc I have for
>> smoothing off feet. With a bit of work it can flatten the foot of a warped
>> bowl, so that at least there's no rocking.
>> 
>> Hope that helps,
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
>> P.S. I'm happy to send pictures directly of the type of large wide bowls I
>> make if anyone is interested.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Susie Hite <hiteshome at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I don't usually comment, but I understand the desire to throw thinner.  I
>>> love a lot of the Japanese pottery and it is usually thin.  I have
>>> unfortunately found that when I throw thin it almost always warps.I feel
>>> your pain. The few times I've been successful was when I was able to put a
>>> piece of news paper over the rim as soon as it was firm enough not deform
>>> the bowl, then when it was leather hard finish drying upside down.  Also
>>> bisque fire upside down.  There's no guarantee it won't warp in the glaze
>>> firing. =0(After all that it's still as Vince said very fragile.It's still
>>> fun to try every once in a while.
>>> Good Luck!!!Susie
>>> 
>>>   On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 9:58 PM, ran mcc <ranmcc at msn.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Guess it was just a thought. Been making pottery for 40 years.  No
>>> training.  No mentors.  Pretty isolated from the clay community except for
>>> clay art.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Vince Pitelka
>>> Date:10/26/2016 9:06 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>> To: 'Clayart international pottery discussion forum'
>>> Subject: Re: [Clayart] Throughing thinner?
>>> 
>>> Hi Randy -
>>> I am curious as to why you would want to lighten them up more.  "Too
>>> light" is a real problem in functional ceramics.  Unless this is a
>>> conceptual project to produce non-functional "bowls," the weight in your
>>> bowls serves an important purpose.
>>> - Vince
>>> 
>>> Vince Pitelka
>>> Appalachian Center for Craft
>>> Tennessee Tech University
>>> vpitelka at dtccom.net
>>> https://sites.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Clayart [mailto:clayart-bounces at lists.clayartworld.com] On Behalf
>>> Of ran mcc
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 11:19 AM
>>> To: ClayArt <clayart at lists.clayartworld.com>
>>> Subject: [Clayart] Throughing thinner?
>>> 
>>> I like to throw 12lb bowls that usually will reach to 18 to 19 inches.
>>> Using Red Stone from Carolina Clay.  12lb bowls will fire out to about 7lbs
>>> with glaze.  I would like to get these bowls lighter in final weight.  I
>>> know I can make sure the bottom is minimum thickness,  I know I can trim as
>>> much as possible.  I just don't want to get warped bowls.  Are there some
>>> techniques you can share to get pieces as thin and light as possible
>>> without causing warping in the fire?  Suggestions on maybe a better clay
>>> that will hold up better to thin throwing without warping?  Any other
>>> suggestions?  Thanks for any help.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Randy
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>> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 00:18:39 +0000
> From: ran mcc <ranmcc at msn.com>
> To: Clayart international pottery discussion forum
>    <clayart at lists.clayartworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [Clayart] Throughing thinner?
> Message-ID:
>    <DM5PR13MB1753C3BA30EE47066A81EC4AD5AD0 at DM5PR13MB1753.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
>    
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Robert I would like a pic of your bowl.
> ranmcc at msn.com
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
> 
> 
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Robert Harris
> Date:10/27/2016 4:10 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: Clayart international pottery discussion forum
> Subject: Re: [Clayart] Throughing thinner?
> 
> I throw thin and occasionally I get warping especially on bowls the size of
> the ones Randy is talking about.
> 
> If you're having problems with deformation while the pot is plastic I would
> suggest a) throwing with less water (easier said than done!) and 2) zapping
> it with a blow torch/heatgun before you take it off the wheel.
> 3) Don't trim the base by resting such a large bowl on its rim. I throw a
> large chuck which the centre and strongest part of the bowl rests on.
> It is also important to dry these things as evenly as possible. (Slow is
> not necessarily better, just evenly). The easiest way to do this is put it
> in some sort of box with holes in it.
> 
> None of this really helps with true warpage (as opposed to plastic
> deformation) in the glaze kiln. For that there is really only one
> suggestion and one "real" solution. The first suggestion is to make sure
> your kiln shelves are dead flat - and if possible as even as possible. For
> a large bowl I put it on an extra kiln shelf that I know is flat, and level
> it with fibre or wadding (I don't go overboard on getting it level but I do
> spend a couple of extra minutes).
> 
> But the real solution is ENGINEERING! Design a bowl that can be large and
> thin and won't warp.
> 
> Everyone has a different "look" to their bowl so it's a bit difficult for
> me to advise what to do, but the most obvious thing to do is to thicken up
> your rim. Just like Susie's newspaper trick, a thicker rim will go a fair
> way to preventing warpage. You can then run into the problem that Vince
> mentioned where the pot looks lighter than it "should", however. Personally
> I throw a large flange type lip on my large bowls that is about 25 degrees
> above the horizontal. It actually has a slight curve in it that strengthens
> it, and this flange has a very thick rim on it, which is less noticeable as
> it's edge on to the viewer (the flange itself can be reasonable thin).
> 
> Also consider increasing the diameter of your foot a little. Finally make
> sure the wall of the bowl has a true taper. With the exception of the rim
> (which we've discussed and which should be well compressed!), the walls
> must be as evenly tapered to the top as possible (including the flange, if
> you have one). I once threw a bowl (about 20", wet) where the bottom 1/3
> was either the same thickness or marginally thinner than the top 1/3 and
> the whole thing just sat down around the foot! Basically if you get
> everything as even as possible (and of course this includes as little
> wobble as possible in the thrown form!) then you'll minimize the chance of
> warpage.
> 
> Finally ... try to embrace a little bit of warpage! It's a handmade pot
> after all! I have recently mentioned the diamond lap disc I have for
> smoothing off feet. With a bit of work it can flatten the foot of a warped
> bowl, so that at least there's no rocking.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Robert
> 
> P.S. I'm happy to send pictures directly of the type of large wide bowls I
> make if anyone is interested.
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Susie Hite <hiteshome at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> 
>> I don't usually comment, but I understand the desire to throw thinner.  I
>> love a lot of the Japanese pottery and it is usually thin.  I have
>> unfortunately found that when I throw thin it almost always warps.I feel
>> your pain. The few times I've been successful was when I was able to put a
>> piece of news paper over the rim as soon as it was firm enough not deform
>> the bowl, then when it was leather hard finish drying upside down.  Also
>> bisque fire upside down.  There's no guarantee it won't warp in the glaze
>> firing. =0(After all that it's still as Vince said very fragile.It's still
>> fun to try every once in a while.
>> Good Luck!!!Susie
>> 
>>    On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 9:58 PM, ran mcc <ranmcc at msn.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Guess it was just a thought. Been making pottery for 40 years.  No
>> training.  No mentors.  Pretty isolated from the clay community except for
>> clay art.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>> 
>> 
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Vince Pitelka
>> Date:10/26/2016 9:06 PM (GMT-05:00)
>> To: 'Clayart international pottery discussion forum'
>> Subject: Re: [Clayart] Throughing thinner?
>> 
>> Hi Randy -
>> I am curious as to why you would want to lighten them up more.  "Too
>> light" is a real problem in functional ceramics.  Unless this is a
>> conceptual project to produce non-functional "bowls," the weight in your
>> bowls serves an important purpose.
>> - Vince
>> 
>> Vince Pitelka
>> Appalachian Center for Craft
>> Tennessee Tech University
>> vpitelka at dtccom.net
>> https://sites.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Clayart [mailto:clayart-bounces at lists.clayartworld.com] On Behalf
>> Of ran mcc
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 11:19 AM
>> To: ClayArt <clayart at lists.clayartworld.com>
>> Subject: [Clayart] Throughing thinner?
>> 
>> I like to throw 12lb bowls that usually will reach to 18 to 19 inches.
>> Using Red Stone from Carolina Clay.  12lb bowls will fire out to about 7lbs
>> with glaze.  I would like to get these bowls lighter in final weight.  I
>> know I can make sure the bottom is minimum thickness,  I know I can trim as
>> much as possible.  I just don't want to get warped bowls.  Are there some
>> techniques you can share to get pieces as thin and light as possible
>> without causing warping in the fire?  Suggestions on maybe a better clay
>> that will hold up better to thin throwing without warping?  Any other
>> suggestions?  Thanks for any help.
>> 
>> 
>> Randy
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